| Dates | # Posts | Subject |
|---|---|---|
| Nov 01 - Nov 03 | 21 | About introducing newbies to FreeBSD |
| Nov 03 - Nov 04 | 8 | Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? |
| Nov 02 - Nov 05 | 10 | CounterStrike |
| Nov 03 - Nov 05 | 10 | Installation: what to (not) do about it |
Quoting a lengthy post to freebsd-questions regarding the usability of /stand/sysintall for newbies, [Micke Josefsson] asked for comments and suggestions from the list about a new user interface for a regular install.
Some notable thoughts were:
I think there should be some info available in sysinstall (or whatever replaces it) explaining what is happening in each step, and the relevant terms...The terms I speak of here are the FreeBSDish terms (as opposed to generic UNIX terms like users & groups) that every rookie asks about - slice? distribution? port? package? The context of each step is not explained. - [Steve Tremblett]
Since most of our new users come to us from either Windows or Linux, we need an installation program that is a lot more like the ones that they've used in the past. I've often wondered how many users we lose while they are trying to load the OS. What I would really like to see is a FreeBSD installer on par with the UnixWare 7 or Tru64 5.0 installers (a clone of SCO Admin would be nice too!). Failing that, we probably need something that looks more like a Linux installer, or a really good rosetta stone. - [Bob Martin]
To get back on track, one of sysinstalls failings, while not being a technical point, is it's image. Everytime I talk to some llama who's installing linux, he goes "OOOOOOhhhhh look at all the pretty colors, mmmmmmmmmmm graphical install...does FreeBSD have that???" Of course me being the civilized being that I am, instead of smacking them upside the head then and there, I wait till they are finished installing, and laugh my arse off linuxconf shits itself for the 20th time...So in conclusion, in order to make FreeBSD's initial installation easier for the novice/unix beginner/grandma, yes, sysinstall does need an overhaul. - [Haikal Saadh]
What is absolutely maddening is the way the installer accepts input from the users. Sometimes you press (or are supposed to press) <RETURN> and some other times you are supposed to press <SPACE>. But the worst part is when you just finished installing the OS and you find yourself back in a menu telling you to do some final adjustments. If you decide to do these final adjustments, the f*****ng installer installs the OS again! Itīs outrageous! - [Ignacio Cristerna]
Obviously, we all agree – we need some sort of new and/or separate "first boot install" for newbies coming to us from Windows, Linux, etc... and according to [Jordan Hubbard], this discussion has been going on for a long, long, long time...
I'm not just being snide here, we really have had this very same discussion (and in almost the same words) on and off for the last 7 years now. It's hardly rocket science to envision an installer which has one big button on it which even your grandmother could push, the question always boiling down to "Who the heck is going to write this thing then?""
That's generally where the discussion stops. Every man and his dog can describe an installer which follows in the footsteps of Windows, Solaris or even OS X now that we have its installer to look at since imitation is a pretty straight-forward design challenge. As I first said back in 1993, "who will step up to the plate and create this alternative installer so that we can evaluate its merits and possibly even make it the default?" I'm still waiting for an answer to that question, 7 years later. :-)"
[Jordan Hubbard] is asking for graphically talented geeks out there to work up a banner ad for rotation on various sites including DæmonNews. Image size should be 468x60 pixels, and no larger than 20k. This is to promote the FreeBSD project, so open up the Gimp or whatever your fancy is, and email Jordan with what you come up with. Remember, you're not going to get paid for this, the warm fuzzy feeling you get for working on the FreeBSD project is enough :-)
This thread started out with [Marius Bendiksen] urging us to push for a CounterStrike (a HalfLife mod) server port. The first step would be to start out with a port skeleton for the dedicated Linux server, then the push would begin with Sierra Games for a full port. [Daryl Chance] replied with a 'make search key=halflife', stating that the server was indeed already ported. Marius still thinks the game should be ported itself though...
A sub-discussion about using Open Sound System vs. FreeBSD's built-in sound support for popular games ensued, and [Terry Lambert] tells us:
-Most games require a specific sound card API. This API is supported natively in Linux, but FreeBSD does not support this API. To use this API, you must have third party (OSS) sound card drivers, or modify FreeBSD's API. When you suggest this to the sound driver people, they tend to get belligerant and talk about how their API is better than the Linux API."
The OSS drivers are not free, they cost money, but you can use them in evaluation mode for 30 days at a pop, so if you want to play a game and not pay for the drivers, you have to reinstall them every 30 days (I personnaly call this "paying for the drivers in the most expensive way possible").
To which [Dag-Erling Smorgrav] replied:
+To which [Dag-Erling Smorgrav] replied:
Bollocks. It implements the OSS API, or at least tries to. If something doesn't work, submit a PR or, even better, patches, instead of just bitching and spreading disinformation.
[Jordan] and [Jim] assure us that both Loki games in the ports tree play audio just fine with the stock audio driver, requiring no changes to the game or your system.
Here we have Terry Lambert and Jordan Hubbard discussing the previous thread about the FreeBSD Installation software. We'll skip the lengthy discussion between these two, but basically, the conversation boils down to this:
I am merely pointing out that it has been much longer than a year without a new installer, and had their terms been agreed to a year ago, FreeBSD would have its installer source code today, and under the terms you are insisting upon, up front.
So now it's your turn to "put up or shut up"; I _can't_ expend the effort on these things without a guarantee that that effort will not be wasted, like it was last time I spent the effort on these and similar projects on behalf of FreeBSD. I _can't_ afford to" - [Terry Lambert]
And this is speculation masquerading as fact. You have no sure way of knowing that this would, in fact, have occurred or that "two FreeBSDs" would have even been widely accepted by the project contributors or the user community. I see it as far more likely that your mysterious commercial benefactors would have been deluged with demands that they open source their product immediately so that people could customize it and this might in turn have led to a siege mentality on their part and very poor results. You simply have no way of knowing for sure what you claim as fact above.
Like I've told you many times, Terry, nobody gets a "guarantee" of anything in this project since it's not a kitchen appliance dealership which hands out limited customer guarantees along with every frigidair they sell. What you get is the chance to deal with a large group of people and try, through dint of effort and perserverance, to sell them on your ideas and (more importantly) your working code. Even if I wanted to change this as part of "putting up or shutting up" for you I could not since it's not in my power to beam hypno-rays directly into the brains of several hundred people and get them all to agree up front to buy a used car from you. That's something that you, and only you, can do. Same deal *everyone* else gets. In short, this is life, deal with it. - [Jordan Hubbard]
This conspectus expresses my understanding of what occurred on the FreeBSD-advocacy mailing list during the specified week.
Hey, I'm human... I may have made an error or two... If you think this is the case, and/or that I have omitted some significant thread or part of a thread, feel free to contact me via email.